Comments on: Gay and Mormon: Trying to understand Homosexuality and Christianity http://www.clintrogersonline.com/blog/2008/11/19/gay-and-mormon-homosexuality-and-christianity/ Blog of P. Clint Rogers, PhD: Culture, Training, and Technology Specialist Tue, 07 Feb 2012 17:46:48 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.1.3 By: Adam Lindsay http://www.clintrogersonline.com/blog/2008/11/19/gay-and-mormon-homosexuality-and-christianity/#comment-2951 Adam Lindsay Sat, 29 Nov 2008 20:40:53 +0000 http://www.clintrogersonline.com/blog/2008/11/19/gay-and-mormon-homosexuality-and-christianity/#comment-2951 Clint, I like you points. The only one that I might take some issue with is the first point- "I am convinced that in most instances, same-sex attraction is not a choice. In our society, why would anyone choose it?" Whether this is accurate or not is not my objection. It might very well be the case that same-sex attraction is not a choice. The second part of the comment is what closes doors for me and nullifies many of the following points. Framing the conversation in this way retains the Othering of gayness. Homosexuality is still seen as deficit, perverted, and delinquent. Was this the intended frame or was it subterranean? If it was intended, it is difficult for me to see how a project and focus on care could be carried out or emphasized. Adam Clint,
I like you points. The only one that I might take some issue with is the first point-
“I am convinced that in most instances, same-sex attraction is not a choice. In our society, why would anyone choose it?”
Whether this is accurate or not is not my objection. It might very well be the case that same-sex attraction is not a choice. The second part of the comment is what closes doors for me and nullifies many of the following points.
Framing the conversation in this way retains the Othering of gayness. Homosexuality is still seen as deficit, perverted, and delinquent. Was this the intended frame or was it subterranean?
If it was intended, it is difficult for me to see how a project and focus on care could be carried out or emphasized.
Adam

]]> By: Clint http://www.clintrogersonline.com/blog/2008/11/19/gay-and-mormon-homosexuality-and-christianity/#comment-2954 Clint Thu, 04 Dec 2008 17:30:50 +0000 http://www.clintrogersonline.com/blog/2008/11/19/gay-and-mormon-homosexuality-and-christianity/#comment-2954 Adam, your comment made me think for a bit. In the first point, I guess I was thinking about how unlikely it is for an individual to choose something that is looked down on so much by general society (regardless of whether society should feel that way or not towards individuals - particularly if it is not a choice of the individual). Whether we like it or not, in today's society there definitely still is a general feeling of "Otherness" towards GLBT, pronounced in Christianity - but I don't see how the attitude of the general society should stop individuals or groups from having a position or focus on care. Does that make sense? It perhaps will get to the point (that Fred Matis thinks) where saying you have same sex attraction will be no more shocking than saying what you had for breakfast. In the mean time, I actually think this whole issue will end up being a big blessing to people of faith - as I hope it will push all of us to be more honest about the things we struggle with, and at the same time struggle more with how we can increase the type of care and love in our lives that truly connects us with God and others. Thanks for the comment Adam - I always like hearing your thoughts. Adam, your comment made me think for a bit. In the first point, I guess I was thinking about how unlikely it is for an individual to choose something that is looked down on so much by general society (regardless of whether society should feel that way or not towards individuals - particularly if it is not a choice of the individual).

Whether we like it or not, in today’s society there definitely still is a general feeling of “Otherness” towards GLBT, pronounced in Christianity - but I don’t see how the attitude of the general society should stop individuals or groups from having a position or focus on care. Does that make sense?

It perhaps will get to the point (that Fred Matis thinks) where saying you have same sex attraction will be no more shocking than saying what you had for breakfast.

In the mean time, I actually think this whole issue will end up being a big blessing to people of faith - as I hope it will push all of us to be more honest about the things we struggle with, and at the same time struggle more with how we can increase the type of care and love in our lives that truly connects us with God and others.

Thanks for the comment Adam - I always like hearing your thoughts.

]]> By: Clint http://www.clintrogersonline.com/blog/2008/11/19/gay-and-mormon-homosexuality-and-christianity/#comment-2967 Clint Tue, 09 Dec 2008 00:06:28 +0000 http://www.clintrogersonline.com/blog/2008/11/19/gay-and-mormon-homosexuality-and-christianity/#comment-2967 Here is an interesting proposal led by Jacob Z. Hess (a Ph.D. Candidate in Clinical-Community Psychology at the University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign) that seeks to bring liberals and conservatives together to talk with each other regarding this issue: <a href='http://www.clintrogersonline.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/marriage-dialogue_a-proposal.doc' title='Dialogue proposal' rel="nofollow">Dialogue proposal</a> The idea is that through well-facilitated intergroup meetings many misunderstandings can be resolved and polarization of parties can be minimized. He is currently seeking feedback on this proposal, so if you have any thoughts, feel free to share them. Here is an interesting proposal led by Jacob Z. Hess (a Ph.D. Candidate in Clinical-Community Psychology at the University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign) that seeks to bring liberals and conservatives together to talk with each other regarding this issue:

Dialogue proposal

The idea is that through well-facilitated intergroup meetings many misunderstandings can be resolved and polarization of parties can be minimized.

He is currently seeking feedback on this proposal, so if you have any thoughts, feel free to share them.

]]> By: VeNicia http://www.clintrogersonline.com/blog/2008/11/19/gay-and-mormon-homosexuality-and-christianity/#comment-2981 VeNicia Thu, 18 Dec 2008 06:19:48 +0000 http://www.clintrogersonline.com/blog/2008/11/19/gay-and-mormon-homosexuality-and-christianity/#comment-2981 After meeting and talking with the wonderful people I've met at the Matis', I have found myself agreeing with the first point you make. At least with friends there, who are "struggling with same-gender attraction" (or SSA--their choice of phrasing as opposed to "gay", which implies a lifestyle which they are choosing not to live), it has become more apparent to me of the many challenges they face on different levels. Though I love and admire them very much, I understand the question "why would they choose it?" as more of an empathetic one, (more in recognition of their angst and and fight and challenges--even hate from others, but judgments at the very least, being shot at them from every angle) rather than a question intended to criticize their choices or judge them for their same-gender attractions. I read is as equivalent of something like: "Given the hate, criticism, judgments and trials they will face, a person would likely not sign up for it solely by choice, but is rather more likely responding to feelings already in existence (whatever the explanation for the feelings)." Especially when, at least for these LDS members who have SSA, it is contrary to what they believe as God's plan, which centers around the family and procreation. All I know is, I empathize the more I talk with them. I admire their commitment to their faith and their tackling of their daily struggles with strength and dedication, despite discouragement. The more I learn the less I tend to judge and the more I just want them to know they are loved for exactly who they are. After meeting and talking with the wonderful people I’ve met at the Matis’, I have found myself agreeing with the first point you make. At least with friends there, who are “struggling with same-gender attraction” (or SSA–their choice of phrasing as opposed to “gay”, which implies a lifestyle which they are choosing not to live), it has become more apparent to me of the many challenges they face on different levels. Though I love and admire them very much, I understand the question “why would they choose it?” as more of an empathetic one, (more in recognition of their angst and and fight and challenges–even hate from others, but judgments at the very least, being shot at them from every angle) rather than a question intended to criticize their choices or judge them for their same-gender attractions. I read is as equivalent of something like: “Given the hate, criticism, judgments and trials they will face, a person would likely not sign up for it solely by choice, but is rather more likely responding to feelings already in existence (whatever the explanation for the feelings).” Especially when, at least for these LDS members who have SSA, it is contrary to what they believe as God’s plan, which centers around the family and procreation. All I know is, I empathize the more I talk with them. I admire their commitment to their faith and their tackling of their daily struggles with strength and dedication, despite discouragement. The more I learn the less I tend to judge and the more I just want them to know they are loved for exactly who they are.

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