Comments on: Is the Dalai Lama lying? Conflict, hypocrisy, and miscommunication – the Dorje Shugden http://www.clintrogersonline.com/blog/2008/05/30/is-the-dalai-lama-lying-conflict-hypocrisy-and-miscommunication-%e2%80%93-the-dorje-shugden/ Blog of P. Clint Rogers, PhD: Culture, Training, and Technology Specialist Fri, 12 Mar 2010 22:14:28 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.1.3 By: Becky http://www.clintrogersonline.com/blog/2008/05/30/is-the-dalai-lama-lying-conflict-hypocrisy-and-miscommunication-%e2%80%93-the-dorje-shugden/#comment-2100 Becky Fri, 30 May 2008 17:42:03 +0000 http://www.clintrogersonline.com/blog/2008/05/30/is-the-dalai-lama-lying-conflict-hypocrisy-and-miscommunication-%e2%80%93-the-dorje-shugden/#comment-2100 What a fun post! I've always been intrigued with protesters... and find it funny that most don't even really know why they are there! How cool that you documented so many conversations. The response from the white lady wrapped in the flag was my favorite! What a fun post! I’ve always been intrigued with protesters… and find it funny that most don’t even really know why they are there! How cool that you documented so many conversations. The response from the white lady wrapped in the flag was my favorite!

]]> By: VeNicia http://www.clintrogersonline.com/blog/2008/05/30/is-the-dalai-lama-lying-conflict-hypocrisy-and-miscommunication-%e2%80%93-the-dorje-shugden/#comment-2102 VeNicia Sat, 31 May 2008 01:37:02 +0000 http://www.clintrogersonline.com/blog/2008/05/30/is-the-dalai-lama-lying-conflict-hypocrisy-and-miscommunication-%e2%80%93-the-dorje-shugden/#comment-2102 I've got to be vague so I don't feel guilty sharing this =o): I have regular meetings with a particular leader where I am one of the group. This leader and I go to other meetings with a different organization where I represent the first group and we all collaborate and plan together. There have been multiple occasions where this leader discusses the same issues with the 2 separate groups, and I've been surprised to hear a different twist in the leader's presentation of the issues, depending on the audience. The significance in how things are phrased would undoubtedly be taken poorly by the group not present in its misrepresentation of their attitudes and intent! I am the lucky in-between person who has tried to smooth over the differences how one group is represented to the other, and the resulting image one group could develop about the other. (It's not recognizable to anyone else because I'm the only one who has directly seen, heard and participated in discussion with both groups. Is this making sense in my vagueness?!) In this, and a few other experiences, I've learned the value of a few things (which I have not yet mastered...), including: 1) ONLY saying things that you would say in the presence of the absent party, 2) being willing to give people the benefit of the doubt before criticizing their motives, especially if you learn of their opinion second-hand!, and 3) Realize that until you've asked some good questions and discussed with the party in person, you don't have enough information to talk about what they are thinking or motivated by! It seems to me that motivation behind this kind of action is the desire to please and appease the people we're with, and the unwillingness to take responsibility personally when something isn't perfect--it's easier to pass blame off onto someone not present. I am surprised how many conflicts I see in my work as well as other places that are based on miscommunication, quick judgments based on limited information, or a downright unwillingness to listen or give someone else the benefit of the doubt. Or unwillingness to be the party who is wrong. If you are right, there is no need to become angry. If you are wrong, you can't afford to! Neat experience, Clint. Thanks for sharing =o) I've read the Dalai Lama's words, and seen him speak. He sure says a lot of things parallel to Pres. Hinckley just in different terms. I think he's great! I’ve got to be vague so I don’t feel guilty sharing this =o): I have regular meetings with a particular leader where I am one of the group. This leader and I go to other meetings with a different organization where I represent the first group and we all collaborate and plan together. There have been multiple occasions where this leader discusses the same issues with the 2 separate groups, and I’ve been surprised to hear a different twist in the leader’s presentation of the issues, depending on the audience. The significance in how things are phrased would undoubtedly be taken poorly by the group not present in its misrepresentation of their attitudes and intent! I am the lucky in-between person who has tried to smooth over the differences how one group is represented to the other, and the resulting image one group could develop about the other. (It’s not recognizable to anyone else because I’m the only one who has directly seen, heard and participated in discussion with both groups. Is this making sense in my vagueness?!)

In this, and a few other experiences, I’ve learned the value of a few things (which I have not yet mastered…), including: 1) ONLY saying things that you would say in the presence of the absent party, 2) being willing to give people the benefit of the doubt before criticizing their motives, especially if you learn of their opinion second-hand!, and 3) Realize that until you’ve asked some good questions and discussed with the party in person, you don’t have enough information to talk about what they are thinking or motivated by!

It seems to me that motivation behind this kind of action is the desire to please and appease the people we’re with, and the unwillingness to take responsibility personally when something isn’t perfect–it’s easier to pass blame off onto someone not present.

I am surprised how many conflicts I see in my work as well as other places that are based on miscommunication, quick judgments based on limited information, or a downright unwillingness to listen or give someone else the benefit of the doubt. Or unwillingness to be the party who is wrong.

If you are right, there is no need to become angry. If you are wrong, you can’t afford to!

Neat experience, Clint. Thanks for sharing =o) I’ve read the Dalai Lama’s words, and seen him speak. He sure says a lot of things parallel to Pres. Hinckley just in different terms. I think he’s great!

]]> By: Cardano http://www.clintrogersonline.com/blog/2008/05/30/is-the-dalai-lama-lying-conflict-hypocrisy-and-miscommunication-%e2%80%93-the-dorje-shugden/#comment-2103 Cardano Sat, 31 May 2008 02:26:06 +0000 http://www.clintrogersonline.com/blog/2008/05/30/is-the-dalai-lama-lying-conflict-hypocrisy-and-miscommunication-%e2%80%93-the-dorje-shugden/#comment-2103 Isn’t live full of quirks, turns and roundabouts? HH as the target of serious allegations. Well this is a free world and we do enjoy it for all its entertaining value. As for the Dorje Shugden worship ban; As head of the Tibetan Buddhist faith, one can imagine that the Dalai Lama’s judgement should be accepted by those following his tradition, and he obviously feels that this particular worship is no in keeping with the teachings. Buddhism is not about deities or the worship of any object, personality or idea, in fact it is the exact opposite, the discarding of all such follies and distractions. If the Dalai Lama has decreed that such pagan worship of a deity is not compatible with Buddhism in the Tibetan tradition then that is his prerogative to keep the teachings pure. Worship of anything at all is anathema to Buddhism. Any sect, group or faction doing so cannot claim to be Buddhist, for in the very act of doing so have ‘violated’ the fundamental teachings that one must abandon all referential thinking. So the grievances this group has with the Dalai Lama is a delusion, for they’re not even remotely of the Buddhist school. Some soul-searching on their part might be more appropriate than taking to the streets and protest, making themselves the laughing stock of the planet. For the Tibetan cause these links will suffice to shed light on their issues, as well as on the Chinese’s fervour for Patriotism and their unfettered love of their “Motherland”. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6a2ory5hr4g http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xhjad2MJsT0 http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7982410976871193492 http://www.tchrd.org/press/2008/pr20080519.html Isn’t live full of quirks, turns and roundabouts? HH as the target of serious allegations. Well this is a free world and we do enjoy it for all its entertaining value.
As for the Dorje Shugden worship ban;
As head of the Tibetan Buddhist faith, one can imagine that the Dalai Lama’s judgement should be accepted by those following his tradition, and he obviously feels that this particular worship is no in keeping with the teachings.
Buddhism is not about deities or the worship of any object, personality or idea, in fact it is the exact opposite, the discarding of all such follies and distractions.
If the Dalai Lama has decreed that such pagan worship of a deity is not compatible with Buddhism in the Tibetan tradition then that is his prerogative to keep the teachings pure.
Worship of anything at all is anathema to Buddhism.
Any sect, group or faction doing so cannot claim to be Buddhist, for in the very act of doing so have ‘violated’ the fundamental teachings that one must abandon all referential thinking.
So the grievances this group has with the Dalai Lama is a delusion, for they’re not even remotely of the Buddhist school. Some soul-searching on their part might be more appropriate than taking to the streets and protest, making themselves the laughing stock of the planet.

For the Tibetan cause these links will suffice to shed light on their issues, as well as on the Chinese’s fervour for Patriotism and their unfettered love of their “Motherland”.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6a2ory5hr4g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xhjad2MJsT0
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7982410976871193492
http://www.tchrd.org/press/2008/pr20080519.html

]]> By: Jeremy http://www.clintrogersonline.com/blog/2008/05/30/is-the-dalai-lama-lying-conflict-hypocrisy-and-miscommunication-%e2%80%93-the-dorje-shugden/#comment-2132 Jeremy Fri, 06 Jun 2008 21:00:25 +0000 http://www.clintrogersonline.com/blog/2008/05/30/is-the-dalai-lama-lying-conflict-hypocrisy-and-miscommunication-%e2%80%93-the-dorje-shugden/#comment-2132 Why are we so quick to classify the intentions of our adversaries as evil? Locus of control. It's human to excuse one's own motives as altruist even when they bring about adverse consequences, while second guessing others' motives, especially when we disagree with their actions. How can we overcome this? Follow Heinlein's Razor: Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity. While calling those with whom we disagree "stupid" is not where we want to end up, moving from "you're eeev-eeel!" to "you're incompetent" is an important step to understanding, perspective, and empathy. Why are we so quick to classify the intentions of our adversaries as evil? Locus of control. It’s human to excuse one’s own motives as altruist even when they bring about adverse consequences, while second guessing others’ motives, especially when we disagree with their actions.

How can we overcome this? Follow Heinlein’s Razor: Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.

While calling those with whom we disagree “stupid” is not where we want to end up, moving from “you’re eeev-eeel!” to “you’re incompetent” is an important step to understanding, perspective, and empathy.

]]> By: Clint http://www.clintrogersonline.com/blog/2008/05/30/is-the-dalai-lama-lying-conflict-hypocrisy-and-miscommunication-%e2%80%93-the-dorje-shugden/#comment-2148 Clint Sun, 08 Jun 2008 16:40:21 +0000 http://www.clintrogersonline.com/blog/2008/05/30/is-the-dalai-lama-lying-conflict-hypocrisy-and-miscommunication-%e2%80%93-the-dorje-shugden/#comment-2148 Thanks for your comments! Each of them offered a different perspective that I think is useful (and in Jeremy's case, also entertaining - which always deserves extra points). For some reason, reading each of the comments just now made me wonder why the natural tendency of humans, when encountering something different, is often to be defensive - quickly labeling the other thing as either mad (i.e. stupid) or bad (i.e. evil)? It made question this as well: Why is it usually such a difficult thing for each of us to admit when we either don't know something, or thought we did but we were wrong? Admitting ignorance or fault seems like such a useful thing - as the starting point for real humility, learning and growth - and at the same time seems like such a difficult task for most of us. If it is so valuable, why is it so elusive? Thanks for your comments!
Each of them offered a different perspective that I think is useful (and in Jeremy’s case, also entertaining - which always deserves extra points).

For some reason, reading each of the comments just now made me wonder why the natural tendency of humans, when encountering something different, is often to be defensive - quickly labeling the other thing as either mad (i.e. stupid) or bad (i.e. evil)?

It made question this as well:
Why is it usually such a difficult thing for each of us to admit when we either don’t know something, or thought we did but we were wrong?

Admitting ignorance or fault seems like such a useful thing - as the starting point for real humility, learning and growth - and at the same time seems like such a difficult task for most of us. If it is so valuable, why is it so elusive?

]]> By: Jason http://www.clintrogersonline.com/blog/2008/05/30/is-the-dalai-lama-lying-conflict-hypocrisy-and-miscommunication-%e2%80%93-the-dorje-shugden/#comment-2223 Jason Mon, 16 Jun 2008 20:12:18 +0000 http://www.clintrogersonline.com/blog/2008/05/30/is-the-dalai-lama-lying-conflict-hypocrisy-and-miscommunication-%e2%80%93-the-dorje-shugden/#comment-2223 Hi - I have been involved in similar protests against the Dalai Lama's ban and suppression of religious freedom - I was a bit shocked by Cardono's comment that we are the laughing stock of the planet..for standing up for human rights? Tibetan Buddhism is complex but this is a simple issue of human rights and religious freedom. All these responses show clearly what we are up against. I have noticed that when people don't want to find out more about the issue it's because they are holding tightly to their own views and don't like to be challenged. Protest campaigns down the years have always faced these kinds of difficulties - it will be interesting to see to what extent the hidden truths we are trying to expose do come to light in the end and how long this process will take. Hi - I have been involved in similar protests against the Dalai Lama’s ban and suppression of religious freedom - I was a bit shocked by Cardono’s comment that we are the laughing stock of the planet..for standing up for human rights? Tibetan Buddhism is complex but this is a simple issue of human rights and religious freedom. All these responses show clearly what we are up against. I have noticed that when people don’t want to find out more about the issue it’s because they are holding tightly to their own views and don’t like to be challenged. Protest campaigns down the years have always faced these kinds of difficulties - it will be interesting to see to what extent the hidden truths we are trying to expose do come to light in the end and how long this process will take.

]]> By: Jason http://www.clintrogersonline.com/blog/2008/05/30/is-the-dalai-lama-lying-conflict-hypocrisy-and-miscommunication-%e2%80%93-the-dorje-shugden/#comment-2224 Jason Mon, 16 Jun 2008 20:14:46 +0000 http://www.clintrogersonline.com/blog/2008/05/30/is-the-dalai-lama-lying-conflict-hypocrisy-and-miscommunication-%e2%80%93-the-dorje-shugden/#comment-2224 AMENDED Hi - I have been involved in similar protests against the Dalai Lama’s ban and suppression of religious freedom - I was a bit shocked by Cardono’s comment that we are the laughing stock of the planet..for standing up for human rights? Tibetan Buddhism is complex but this is a simple issue of human rights and religious freedom. All these responses in Oxford show clearly what we are up against. I have noticed that when people don’t want to find out more about the issue it’s because they are holding tightly to their own views and don’t like to be challenged. Protest campaigns down the years have always faced these kinds of difficulties - it will be interesting to see to what extent the hidden truths we are trying to expose do come to light in the end and how long this process will take. AMENDED Hi - I have been involved in similar protests against the Dalai Lama’s ban and suppression of religious freedom - I was a bit shocked by Cardono’s comment that we are the laughing stock of the planet..for standing up for human rights? Tibetan Buddhism is complex but this is a simple issue of human rights and religious freedom. All these responses in Oxford show clearly what we are up against. I have noticed that when people don’t want to find out more about the issue it’s because they are holding tightly to their own views and don’t like to be challenged. Protest campaigns down the years have always faced these kinds of difficulties - it will be interesting to see to what extent the hidden truths we are trying to expose do come to light in the end and how long this process will take.

]]> By: John http://www.clintrogersonline.com/blog/2008/05/30/is-the-dalai-lama-lying-conflict-hypocrisy-and-miscommunication-%e2%80%93-the-dorje-shugden/#comment-2231 John Wed, 18 Jun 2008 12:21:41 +0000 http://www.clintrogersonline.com/blog/2008/05/30/is-the-dalai-lama-lying-conflict-hypocrisy-and-miscommunication-%e2%80%93-the-dorje-shugden/#comment-2231 Cardano said: "As head of the Tibetan Buddhist faith" He isn't. He is the political leader and is an important monk in the Gelug school. There are three other schools who are different to Gelugs. The theory is that he has done a deal to curb the power of the Gelugs in return for which the three other schools allow him to create a new united Tibetan political and spiritual organisation. Understandable from a pragmatic point of view. But upsets traditionalists which many of the lamas tend to be. He has also upset senior Kagyu lamas see: http://www.karmapa-issue.org/politics/hhshamarpa_hhdalailama.htm where HH Shamar Rinpoche says: "If His Holiness is merely using his immense popularity in the Himalayas, in India , and around the world in an attempt to usurp control over the Karmapa Labrang, then I must respectfully reject his opinion about Rumtek. I realize that HH Dalai Lama wants to unite the Tibetan people to work for their freedom. But that is no reason to trample on the human rights and religious freedom of Buddhist believers. As our cause is just, so we should respect human rights in all situations, not only when it is convenient for us to do so. All leaders, no matter how virtuous, must have limits on their power. Many popular, charismatic leaders in the past have used popularity and prestige to set themselves up as dictators. Perhaps these leaders had good intentions and hoped that by increasing their own power they could accomplish more good in the world. But in the end, absolute rule has always led to suffering. " Cardano said:

“As head of the Tibetan Buddhist faith”

He isn’t. He is the political leader and is an important monk in the Gelug school.

There are three other schools who are different to Gelugs.

The theory is that he has done a deal to curb the power of the Gelugs in return for which the three other schools allow him to create a new united Tibetan political and spiritual organisation.

Understandable from a pragmatic point of view. But upsets traditionalists which many of the lamas tend to be.

He has also upset senior Kagyu lamas see:

http://www.karmapa-issue.org/politics/hhshamarpa_hhdalailama.htm

where HH Shamar Rinpoche says:

“If His Holiness is merely using his immense popularity in the Himalayas, in India , and around the world in an attempt to usurp control over the Karmapa Labrang, then I must respectfully reject his opinion about Rumtek. I realize that HH Dalai Lama wants to unite the Tibetan people to work for their freedom. But that is no reason to trample on the human rights and religious freedom of Buddhist believers. As our cause is just, so we should respect human rights in all situations, not only when it is convenient for us to do so.

All leaders, no matter how virtuous, must have limits on their power. Many popular, charismatic leaders in the past have used popularity and prestige to set themselves up as dictators. Perhaps these leaders had good intentions and hoped that by increasing their own power they could accomplish more good in the world. But in the end, absolute rule has always led to suffering. “

]]> By: Clint http://www.clintrogersonline.com/blog/2008/05/30/is-the-dalai-lama-lying-conflict-hypocrisy-and-miscommunication-%e2%80%93-the-dorje-shugden/#comment-2237 Clint Thu, 19 Jun 2008 05:49:26 +0000 http://www.clintrogersonline.com/blog/2008/05/30/is-the-dalai-lama-lying-conflict-hypocrisy-and-miscommunication-%e2%80%93-the-dorje-shugden/#comment-2237 I was wondering how long it would be before someone challenged earlier comments. My original question ("how to get around skepticism, quick labeling, and the resulting miscommunication?") I think is partially answered through iterative dialogs like this one - where people can express their thoughts, hear alternative points of view, take time to think and respond again, etc... I suppose it is also true that the less defensiveness that exists, the better for actually listening to each other. Cardano - after reading the last two comments, do you think any differently? I was wondering how long it would be before someone challenged earlier comments.
My original question (”how to get around skepticism, quick labeling, and the resulting miscommunication?”) I think is partially answered through iterative dialogs like this one - where people can express their thoughts, hear alternative points of view, take time to think and respond again, etc…
I suppose it is also true that the less defensiveness that exists, the better for actually listening to each other.

Cardano - after reading the last two comments, do you think any differently?

]]> By: Lineageholder http://www.clintrogersonline.com/blog/2008/05/30/is-the-dalai-lama-lying-conflict-hypocrisy-and-miscommunication-%e2%80%93-the-dorje-shugden/#comment-2281 Lineageholder Tue, 24 Jun 2008 08:09:46 +0000 http://www.clintrogersonline.com/blog/2008/05/30/is-the-dalai-lama-lying-conflict-hypocrisy-and-miscommunication-%e2%80%93-the-dorje-shugden/#comment-2281 Cardano said "Worship of anything at all is anathema to Buddhism. Any sect, group or faction doing so cannot claim to be Buddhist, for in the very act of doing so have ‘violated’ the fundamental teachings that one must abandon all referential thinking." I'm afraid this is incorrect. 'worship' in this context is making prayers and requests for help from enlightened beings. The reason why someone becomes enlightened is to liberate all living beings from suffering. Enlightened consciousness is omnipresent and we make requests to enlightened beings for help. The Dalai Lama himself worships, but he doesn't worship Dorje Shugden, he worships other Deities - ie, offers praises and requests for help. It's not true that worship is not an aspect of Buddhism Cardano said

“Worship of anything at all is anathema to Buddhism.
Any sect, group or faction doing so cannot claim to be Buddhist, for in the very act of doing so have ‘violated’ the fundamental teachings that one must abandon all referential thinking.”

I’m afraid this is incorrect. ‘worship’ in this context is making prayers and requests for help from enlightened beings. The reason why someone becomes enlightened is to liberate all living beings from suffering. Enlightened consciousness is omnipresent and we make requests to enlightened beings for help. The Dalai Lama himself worships, but he doesn’t worship Dorje Shugden, he worships other Deities - ie, offers praises and requests for help. It’s not true that worship is not an aspect of Buddhism

]]> By: Cardano http://www.clintrogersonline.com/blog/2008/05/30/is-the-dalai-lama-lying-conflict-hypocrisy-and-miscommunication-%e2%80%93-the-dorje-shugden/#comment-2425 Cardano Sun, 20 Jul 2008 09:42:44 +0000 http://www.clintrogersonline.com/blog/2008/05/30/is-the-dalai-lama-lying-conflict-hypocrisy-and-miscommunication-%e2%80%93-the-dorje-shugden/#comment-2425 Now this Dorje Shugden deity controversy is marked with all the intrigues and underhand tactics worthy of a high power play political thriller. One wonders if these street protesters actually are aware of the whole background to their perceived grievances they so vocally scream out in servitude to their masters. Do they ever question the motivation behind the rhetoric, the origin to the murky, unsubstantiated allegations or the methods used in their leader’s ‘war’ against the Tibetan people? These Shugden warriors have sadly become to be the naïve puppets of a much wider power play by the very masters of Deception and Propaganda-Lies, and occupiers of the Tibetan homeland; the CCP. These unwitting propaganda soldiers are carrying out one of the most despicable and depraved smear campaigns against the Tibetans, the CTA, and particularly the Dalai Lama in order to eliminate their legitimacy to represent the Tibetans and their just cause. Divide and rule; sow dissent and reap power over a divided society, so the CCP’s motives. While the CCP is busy handing out grants to monks and funding monasteries if they are a hotbed of Shugden worship inside Tibet, they foment this rift in the Tibetan society inside and outside Tibet in order to destroy any unity and opposition to their oppressive rule over Tibet. Expatriot Tibetan monks of the Shugden persuasion are frequent and welcome visitors to Chinese run, and tightly controlled Shugden monasteries inside Tibet, and carry the seed of dissent and disharmony back to the exiled Tibetan communities. One only has to look at the methods used by the Kadampa cabal and their servile propaganda warriors carrying placards with their vitriolic slogans to get an idea of what their credentials really are: Calling press conferences that attract world wide media including, of course, the CCP’s mouth piece Xinhua etc. Where they decry the Dalai Lama with vitriolic venom copied straight from the CCP’s own Propaganda-Lies Unit. Court action in Indian Courts against the CTA, the Dalai Lama, and the Tibetan people by proxy. The release of rancorous press releases with copies sent to the President and Prime Minister of India and Government Ministers to undermine the very tenuous existence the homeless refugee Tibetans manage to cling to. The dissemination of anonymous pamphlets full of lies, in a smear campaign more like it is coming straight from the CCP’s own Propaganda-Lies Unit. Propaganda foot soldiers taking to the streets with their bizarre accusations to publicly vilify and embarrass the Dalai Lama , which, by any examination, has no basis in fact whatsoever. And which these marionettes don’t really seem to comprehend. Just ask, are these the actions of true Buddhists, who by virtue of even just simply claiming to be ‘Buddhists’ would refrain from any of these actions? Are these the deeds of anyone having even a seed of compassion, concern, or just the least bit of consideration for the effects of their activities, and for the implications to the Tibetan cause? Or are they so bereft of any morals or ethics, or the slightest bit of insight into the wider issue that they’re incapable of questioning their own motives and actions, and are immune to any pangs of conscience? Perhaps it is in the nature of their cult, and or the worship of this Shugden guy which has taken hold of their moral compass and blinded them completely from seeking the facts and truth. Their actions, behaviour and pronunciations are clearly that of a cult in the true sense, complete with servile, perfunctory mob behaviour, slogan shouting and recitation of prescribed propaganda lines and also the sole acceptance of the one “truth”, authority and Guru. And anyone who’s not exactly of the same belief, mind or school is a non-believer, deviant and a heretic. The Dalai Lama now has taken on this role in their corrupted minds, so they can project their non-Buddhist venom, emotions and feelings against this perceived “villain”. They’ve become so entangled in their referential, circulatory and delusionary thinking, and strayed so far from the path of Dharma, that they’re truly in need of help and compassion. The sad thing is that probably they’ve started out with sincere motives, wanting to become true Buddhists and serve all sentient beings through their practise of the tenets and ideals of Buddhism. They’ve been led astray by amoral leaders pursuing their unholy vendetta and aims, and in the process their beliefs have become an insidious meme. And once such a pernicious meme has gotten hold of a feeble mind, it is but a puppet on a string at the command of the puppeteer, with the puppet unaware of the surreptitious manipulation. To complete the picture, they’re completely afraid of even investigating the issue and questioning their leader’s motives for fear of having their beliefs shaken and loosing that soother of a meme. By the sweetest irony of all, they, the Shugden cult themselves are the ultimate rationale and attestation for the Dalai Lama’s advice to refrain form propitiating this Shugden deity. By their very inappropriate, inconsiderate, deplorable, and downright un-Buddhist actions they’ve demonstrated just the very point; the objectionable disharmony, sectarianisms and split they’ve wreaked on the Tibetan society at a time they just don’t need any such externally incited torment. But that’s just the CCP’s game-plan; the Shugden puppets have taken the bait, hook, line and sinker and even gone to extraordinary lengths to serve the CCP’s heinous purpose. 1:0 to the CCP, and an irreparable setback to the Tibetan cause! Well done Shugdeneers! More background information about this cult: http://info-buddhism.com/Western_Shugden_Society_unlocked.html http://www.tibetinfonet.net/content/update/116 http://www.phayul.com/news/article.aspx?article=His+Holiness+the+Dalai+Lama's+Advice+Concerning+Dolgyal+(Shugden)&id=21437 http://info-buddhismus.de/new_kadampa_tradition.html Now this Dorje Shugden deity controversy is marked with all the intrigues and underhand tactics worthy of a high power play political thriller.

One wonders if these street protesters actually are aware of the whole background to their perceived grievances they so vocally scream out in servitude to their masters.

Do they ever question the motivation behind the rhetoric, the origin to the murky, unsubstantiated allegations or the methods used in their leader’s ‘war’ against the Tibetan people?

These Shugden warriors have sadly become to be the naïve puppets of a much wider power play by the very masters of Deception and Propaganda-Lies, and occupiers of the Tibetan homeland; the CCP.
These unwitting propaganda soldiers are carrying out one of the most despicable and depraved smear campaigns against the Tibetans, the CTA, and particularly the Dalai Lama in order to eliminate their legitimacy to represent the Tibetans and their just cause.
Divide and rule; sow dissent and reap power over a divided society, so the CCP’s motives.

While the CCP is busy handing out grants to monks and funding monasteries if they are a hotbed of Shugden worship inside Tibet, they foment this rift in the Tibetan society inside and outside Tibet in order to destroy any unity and opposition to their oppressive rule over Tibet.
Expatriot Tibetan monks of the Shugden persuasion are frequent and welcome visitors to Chinese run, and tightly controlled Shugden monasteries inside Tibet, and carry the seed of dissent and disharmony back to the exiled Tibetan communities.

One only has to look at the methods used by the Kadampa cabal and their servile propaganda warriors carrying placards with their vitriolic slogans to get an idea of what their credentials really are:

Calling press conferences that attract world wide media including, of course, the CCP’s mouth piece Xinhua etc.
Where they decry the Dalai Lama with vitriolic venom copied straight from the CCP’s own Propaganda-Lies Unit.

Court action in Indian Courts against the CTA, the Dalai Lama, and the Tibetan people by proxy.

The release of rancorous press releases with copies sent to the President and Prime Minister of India and Government Ministers to undermine the very tenuous existence the homeless refugee Tibetans manage to cling to.

The dissemination of anonymous pamphlets full of lies, in a smear campaign more like it is coming straight from the CCP’s own Propaganda-Lies Unit.

Propaganda foot soldiers taking to the streets with their bizarre accusations to publicly vilify and embarrass the Dalai Lama , which, by any examination, has no basis in fact whatsoever. And which these marionettes don’t really seem to comprehend.

Just ask, are these the actions of true Buddhists, who by virtue of even just simply claiming to be ‘Buddhists’ would refrain from any of these actions?

Are these the deeds of anyone having even a seed of compassion, concern, or just the least bit of consideration for the effects of their activities, and for the implications to the Tibetan cause?

Or are they so bereft of any morals or ethics, or the slightest bit of insight into the wider issue that they’re incapable of questioning their own motives and actions, and are immune to any pangs of conscience?

Perhaps it is in the nature of their cult, and or the worship of this Shugden guy which has taken hold of their moral compass and blinded them completely from seeking the facts and truth.

Their actions, behaviour and pronunciations are clearly that of a cult in the true sense, complete with servile, perfunctory mob behaviour, slogan shouting and recitation of prescribed propaganda lines and also the sole acceptance of the one “truth”, authority and Guru.
And anyone who’s not exactly of the same belief, mind or school is a non-believer, deviant and a heretic.
The Dalai Lama now has taken on this role in their corrupted minds, so they can project their non-Buddhist venom, emotions and feelings against this perceived “villain”.
They’ve become so entangled in their referential, circulatory and delusionary thinking, and strayed so far from the path of Dharma, that they’re truly in need of help and compassion.

The sad thing is that probably they’ve started out with sincere motives, wanting to become true Buddhists and serve all sentient beings through their practise of the tenets and ideals of Buddhism.
They’ve been led astray by amoral leaders pursuing their unholy vendetta and aims, and in the process their beliefs have become an insidious meme.
And once such a pernicious meme has gotten hold of a feeble mind, it is but a puppet on a string at the command of the puppeteer, with the puppet unaware of the surreptitious manipulation.
To complete the picture, they’re completely afraid of even investigating the issue and questioning their leader’s motives for fear of having their beliefs shaken and loosing that soother of a meme.

By the sweetest irony of all, they, the Shugden cult themselves are the ultimate rationale and attestation for the Dalai Lama’s advice to refrain form propitiating this Shugden deity.

By their very inappropriate, inconsiderate, deplorable, and downright un-Buddhist actions they’ve demonstrated just the very point; the objectionable disharmony, sectarianisms and split they’ve wreaked on the Tibetan society at a time they just don’t need any such externally incited torment.

But that’s just the CCP’s game-plan; the Shugden puppets have taken the bait, hook, line and sinker and even gone to extraordinary lengths to serve the CCP’s heinous purpose.

1:0 to the CCP, and an irreparable setback to the Tibetan cause!

Well done Shugdeneers!

More background information about this cult:
http://info-buddhism.com/Western_Shugden_Society_unlocked.html

http://www.tibetinfonet.net/content/update/116

http://www.phayul.com/news/article.aspx?article=His+Holiness+the+Dalai+Lama’s+Advice+Concerning+Dolgyal+(Shugden)&id=21437

http://info-buddhismus.de/new_kadampa_tradition.html

]]> By: Bob http://www.clintrogersonline.com/blog/2008/05/30/is-the-dalai-lama-lying-conflict-hypocrisy-and-miscommunication-%e2%80%93-the-dorje-shugden/#comment-2648 Bob Fri, 29 Aug 2008 18:31:59 +0000 http://www.clintrogersonline.com/blog/2008/05/30/is-the-dalai-lama-lying-conflict-hypocrisy-and-miscommunication-%e2%80%93-the-dorje-shugden/#comment-2648 There's been much criticism about the WSS protests "not being very Buddhist!" Recently we see in the news (see link below) Tens of thousands of South Korean Buddhists peacefully demonstrating waving placards and fists, chanting "Oppose religious discrimination" against their country's leader and government. Are they not Buddhists too? http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article1613188.ece There’s been much criticism about the WSS protests “not being very Buddhist!”
Recently we see in the news (see link below) Tens of thousands of South Korean Buddhists peacefully demonstrating waving placards and fists, chanting
“Oppose religious discrimination” against their country’s leader and government.

Are they not Buddhists too?

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article1613188.ece

]]> By: Jason http://www.clintrogersonline.com/blog/2008/05/30/is-the-dalai-lama-lying-conflict-hypocrisy-and-miscommunication-%e2%80%93-the-dorje-shugden/#comment-2672 Jason Thu, 11 Sep 2008 08:28:36 +0000 http://www.clintrogersonline.com/blog/2008/05/30/is-the-dalai-lama-lying-conflict-hypocrisy-and-miscommunication-%e2%80%93-the-dorje-shugden/#comment-2672 Hi Cardano 'The dissemination of anonymous pamphlets full of lies, in a smear campaign more like it is coming straight from the CCP’s own Propaganda-Lies Unit.' Sadly they aren't lies - I know it's convenient to brand the protestors as Tibet bashing cult foot soldiers but please do us a favour.. 'Propaganda foot soldiers taking to the streets with their bizarre accusations to publicly vilify and embarrass the Dalai Lama , which, by any examination, has no basis in fact whatsoever.' There is so much evidence now of religious persecution against the Tibetan people by the Dalai Lama and his government..what about justice for them? Is that irrelevant? 'Ask, are these the actions of true Buddhists, who by virtue of just simply claiming to be ‘Buddhists’ would refrain from any of these actions?' Who has decreed that Buddhists cannot engage in strong actions in order to help others? 'Are these the deeds of anyone having even a seed of compassion, concern, or just the least bit of consideration for the effects of their activities, and for the implications to the Tibetan cause?' The implications for the Tibetan cause coming from this unlawful policy of Buddhist apartheid are horrific. How wonderful for everyone affected if the Dalai Lama can reverse this disastrous policy or at least agree to some dialogue. I know it's inconvenient but please check this out - we are not against Tibet, we are not pro China, this issue has two sides and we wouldn't be protesting without good reason. Thanks... Hi Cardano

‘The dissemination of anonymous pamphlets full of lies, in a smear campaign more like it is coming straight from the CCP’s own Propaganda-Lies Unit.’

Sadly they aren’t lies - I know it’s convenient to brand the protestors as Tibet bashing cult foot soldiers but please do us a favour..

‘Propaganda foot soldiers taking to the streets with their bizarre accusations to publicly vilify and embarrass the Dalai Lama , which, by any examination, has no basis in fact whatsoever.’

There is so much evidence now of religious persecution against the Tibetan people by the Dalai Lama and his government..what about justice for them? Is that irrelevant?

‘Ask, are these the actions of true Buddhists, who by virtue of just simply claiming to be ‘Buddhists’ would refrain from any of these actions?’

Who has decreed that Buddhists cannot engage in strong actions in order to help others?

‘Are these the deeds of anyone having even a seed of compassion, concern, or just the least bit of consideration for the effects of their activities, and for the implications to the Tibetan cause?’

The implications for the Tibetan cause coming from this unlawful policy of Buddhist apartheid are horrific. How wonderful for everyone affected if the Dalai Lama can reverse this disastrous policy or at least agree to some dialogue.

I know it’s inconvenient but please check this out - we are not against Tibet, we are not pro China, this issue has two sides and we wouldn’t be protesting without good reason. Thanks…

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